In What way is Mondio 1 harder than SchH3? - Page 4

Quote: Just so you are aware, the search in Mondio isn't directed, its free, the dog runs till he finds the decoy.  I know that would make my blind search much easier in Sch regardless if its a pattern or not.

Sorry you are having trouble with the blinds. LOL  In Mondio the dog doesn't have the advantage of the handler directing him, and the handler gets to walk along with the dog. Mondio you get to stand there and hope to God that nothing goes awry.

Also the decoy is on the field somewhere, not necessarily the blind. Completely different set of problems. At least in Sch you are telling the dog where to go. LOL : )

Don-- first all dogs should be under control in any sport as well as non-sport. . Yes I acknowledge what you stated about the blinds .. OK- as for french ring and i know the question was about mondio .. but transfer the thought here. as amny ring sports have similarities.  all but one exercise throughout the whole trial is done offleash and without collar . it is all verbal /whistle command. even  has a call off in upper levels there is food throughout the field , which is to be ignored . that is CONTROL !. When i was in Germany a couple of years ago when the SV was instating a rule change about when the leashes needed  be placed back onto the dog .. many were concearned and upset. I looked at my friend an SV judge after the session .. as if to look with the expression  and he knows I train and teach without collars /leashes.. He said to me . it is easy for you .. but that requires an approach different . many people here just want to get the dog titled .. your training takes much more time and effort. Also for the brevet [French ring - not sure about mondio but I think it is analogous - just to get to the entry level .. analogous to the BH .. your dog must do a long attack  [ helper sidstepping the dog] / out and call back to heel with you at a distance and the dog must also do a backward heel with a non commanded attack when helper accosts the hanlder .followed by three guard/holds /escapes with attack .. then out/call back to heel command. Retrieves involve scent discrimination .... Agility .. the dog must jump 1 meter hurdle for Ring 1 . As I stated when you get into other European sports .. the dog must think and problem solve in the trial . the dog is chalenged mentally and physically ! So does anyone think Mondio Ring  1  or other like Ring 1 sports are easier than Sch. ?

ZDOG, man I am not just busting you out here so keep that in mind. : )

QUOTE: modio ring is NOT French ring, the decoy isn't against the dog in MR like it is in FR.  Like I said before there are different exercises in MR than Sch with food refusal and scent discrimination being some of them  BUt take you MR dog and lay a track and tell me what happens.  Thought so. what about the MR dog that has been thru it 100 times and knows the clatter stick will never hit them, knows the hanging bottles are just hanging bottles???

The decoy is against the dog in MR.

Tracking as not really the point now is it???? Just as an example, most really good tracking coondogs are for shit when it comes to the kill. Can you name some phenominal tracking dogs that really were all that???? And out of how many???? Plus the Mals have been bred and tested through ring, and are pretty much schooling GSD's all over the place. So knowing this, do you really think that tracking means shit about a dog?? These same dogs that historically never track are winning, and by almost anyones definition, are much more impressive in the bitework and OB.  Soooooooooo why do you guys track again???? Thought so. : P LOL

Quote: what about the MR dog that has been thru it 100 times and knows the clatter stick will never hit them, knows the hanging bottles are just hanging bottles???

Do you really think that a stick hit coming from a thin peice of plastic covered with padding and suede is a test???  And then three hits???? LOL

QUOTE:yes an object guard is nice to see, and different, but i've always said they have different aspects to them.  How real it is?? I'd bet I would never leave my dog buy a cooler or baby or bike etc and leave and tell him to guard, just what I'd need a dog bite with my bite trained dog on a person that got too close.  nobody around to see it, who do you think they'll come after, you or the guy that got bit??

OK, I think you need to understand that exersize a bit better to discuss it. Just cause you left something somewhere doesn't mean that your dog is automatically going to go into "autoguard" LOL Plus I am not sure why it would even occur to you. :  ) We are just looking at the dog from a different angle. How he takes to this exersize is just another way of looking at a dog and his ability to inhibit himself.

QUOTE:  but I don't really think they are as different as some would like to make them appear.

I think they are day and night different. Look at where ring has kept the Mal, and then look where Sch has taken the GSD.

Jeff

First of all, I never said I had a problem with the blinds.  I just walk down the middle and point!

"tracking means shit about a dog"  -----  Really?  I guess that is easy to say when it isn't a part of your sport.  If Mondio had a third phase and SchH didn't, you would be using that in Mondio's favor. 

"I think they are day and night different. Look at where ring has kept the Mal, and then look where Sch has taken the GSD."  Nice statement!  Yes that is the only reason good GSD's are becoming a rarity.  It has nothing to do with the fact that everybody and their brother are breeding them.  They are always in the top 5 for registered dogs.  Nobody outside of this working circle knows what a malinois is.  Wait a while and they will become more popular with the public and a decline will be seen.   Not to mention the fact that there hasn't been a split for show purposes.

At first I was a bit upset that USA closed the National Championship to the Malinois.  After a bit of thought, I came up with a few good reasons for the omission.  I like the well balance, old style German Shepherd.  I hate to see people breeding malinois in Shepherd clothing.  I don't want the GSD to become a malinois.  If you want that Temp., character and drive, go buy a malinois.

ALPHAPUP

I never said One sport, as a whole, was harder than another in any way.  If you re-read my posts I said what I thought was harder about Mondio.  In a later post I stated what is harder about SchH.    With that being said, I think SchH is harder for the Handler and Mondio MAY be harder for the dog.

Plus the Mals have been bred and tested through ring, and are pretty much schooling GSD's all over the place. So knowing this, do you really think that tracking means shit about a dog?? These same dogs that historically never track are winning, and by almost anyones definition, are much more impressive in the bitework and OB.  Soooooooooo why do you guys track again???? Thought so. : P LOL

If you feel this way than what are you doing here?  Could it be because this board isn't monitored so you can pull your usual tired argumentative crap & not kicked off or muzzled as has been your experience on just about all other boards?

Times like this make me wish there was an edit feature on this message board!  Jeff, many times on other boards you lead very interesting and productive discussions, and at times you provide very good advise.  My problem with you is when you start with the "my dogbreed is better than your dog" crap.  It's as if you think you need to prove something - buddy, this is a GSD board & regardless of what you think, we have many good reasons for choosing this breed over Malinois.  I'm not saying GSDs are better, but those of us who choose them prefer them - so relax, Please!

Don . i acknowledge you last statement.  .. HMMM... - RE:  comment tracking means s>> ---- Oh my goodness . One of the reasons I still respect Sch ...: if anyone wants to understand Canines .. better yet any canine that works -- you would UNDERSTAND .. if you wnat to know the dog .. know the NOSE ..-- the NOSE is the key to the Canine/GSD  !! That is one reason why I do not dismiss Sch so fast .. even though the Protection phases are more of a challenge to the GSD in other sports [ yes the helper is not thewre to merely present a sleeve or an article but is to vie against the dog]. Even in my training classe I always educate the novices about the nose [ and also the hearing abilities . Goodness .. the GSD can wind scent a half mile away pending parameters.

I have watched a excellent Gsd being trained in Mondio and it was interesting.

the gsd was off leash and the trainer would walk around until a "helper" would attack or grab him. Only then was the dog allowed to attack which he did very well.  This GSd would watch anyone who approached but never made a move or noise but the second the handler went for the trainer he would attack aggressively. I was impressed watching.  this dog was trained at Malinda Julian's facility.

Desert Rangers--that is a very nice exercise to watch . we do the same in French ring too except the dog id doing a backwards heel until handler is attacked .. no matter what the decoy does .. not until attack takes place.-- if you have a half way decent dog .. this is not hard to teach . as a matter of fact it is easy ! GSDs and malinois [ which i aslo own ] are as we know exremely intelligent ! not so hard to teach if we keep this in mind ! the dog quickly picks up it's vantage.. the more the dog wants to bite .. even more easy to teach !

Quote: If you feel this way than what are you doing here?  Could it be because this board isn't monitored so you can pull your usual tired argumentative crap & not kicked off or muzzled as has been your experience on just about all other boards?

What boards???? What feelings?????? WTF are you even talking about here???? Here is how this works. There is a subject that we are discussing, and we reply to each other. You posted a quote from me, and then just went on with this blather. I have never been kicked off a board, and have no idea what that has to do with tracking proving a breeds worth. If you would like to comment on how YOU think that tracking proves a breeds worth, then go ahead.

I understand that you are new to dog training, so maybe you sit this one out. This is not so much a discussion on tracking as much as it is a discussion on whether or not it makes a difference in a breed program, or sport.

Since this is one of the few boards out there that allows you to put whatever stupid name you want, I have no idea who anyone is, LUCKILY I could care less, and have no idea whether or not I have argued with you before. For all I know you could be the infamous Cath.